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Hi Guys,

I've been at it again this weekend out in the eastern Florida panhandle (Chipley, FL area) and came up with another stunner. I'm a bit confused though about the identification. According to Hobbs' notes, where I fished should hold C. diogenes but this one to me looks much more like C. ludovicianus than diogenes. If it is ludovicianus, then it is over 250 miles east of it's "documented" range. Any help would be appreciated. Pics to follow: I'll post more pics from the trip as soon as I get them all photographed. See ya!

Cambarus miltus has recently been discovered in the Florida pan handle. I think that is what you got. Nice find but a very very rare crayfish. That is a second form male, I could verify it with the gonopod if it was form I.

Thanks so much Appy!! I collected a second male, I'll see if I can photo his gonopod and post it for you or send it in an email to you. Everything else I caught were 1" or smaller juveniles. Even so, this location is over 150 miles from the "type locality" on the BYU crayfish site, maybe they're not so rare as we thought???? I collected the ones I have in the water, burrowed in and under heavy leaf litter. The location was at the Hightower Spring public boat ramp at Holmes Creek, southwestern Washington County, Florida - in an area that in Hobbs' was listed as C. diogenes. Actually, I was looking for Proc. versutus (which is also documented there by Hobbs) when I found the first male..... However what I found there look more to me like Proc. spiculifer. I'll be posting pics of those within a day or two.... My GPS reading would actually take you to within 10' of where I collected the first male....

Nice find. Appy can you give some info on how this species is distinguished from the others in the subgenus? I have found many Cambarus ludovicianus in Texas that have a nearly identical color pattern as this one. Hobbs in one of his last trips to Texas, identified some specimens as diogenes that, based on locality, were almost certaintly striped to some degree. What you found may be what Hobbs identified as diogenes.

Dan:

C. miltus has a caudal knob on the form I gonopod. Color wise I also notice that ludovicianus has three stripes down the abdomen whereas miltus has just one.

mudbug:

I checked with Chris T. who studies miltus and his specimens from the FL panhandle are from the same creek as yours.

Here are a couple Texas Cambarus ludovicianus with patterns similar to the miltus:





In Texas stripes vary from very pronounced to very obscure. I haven't found anything yet with no hint of stripes though. In Hobbs illustrated checklist, I don't see any real difference in the gonopods of ludovicianus, miltus and diogenes. Do you have a pdf of the miltus description?

Yes the checklist doesn't show the knob. Private message me your email and I will send you the PDF of the miltus description. I will have to do it from work though as my dial up at home is too slow.

Now I have never been to Texas and I have not examined any Texas Lacuni's, but from what I have seen, diogenes has a third row of tubercles that goes diagonally across the palm. Only one population I have seen doesn't have this third row and they are limited to southern IL and adjacent KY. ludovicianus never has this third row. I believe there is also a difference between ludovicianus and diogenes in the ratio: areola length divided by carapace length, but I have never looked into this and I forget where I saw it.

Appy,

I sent you an email.

I'm aware of some of the subtle morphological differences between ludo and diogenes. I suspect Texas only has ludo, but from what I've seen I wouldn't be surprised if some ludo have no trace of striping, although I haven't found any that extreme yet.

--Dan

Appy,

Got the PDF. Thanks! Looks like the morphology is distinct; however, I'm surprised he did a description based on so few specimens. He examined only a single form I male if I read it correctly. I recently thought I had a new species based a 3-4 males. After collecting a large series of form I males recently (10), I decided it's just a highly variable species.

--Dan

Yep it was just one form I male. I imagine Joe was sure of what he was doing as they were so different from the diogenes in the area. The original site was very small and over run with fiddler crabs. Joe took me there years ago and we were only able to find two burrows and I took them both, both were form I. I was afraid we wiped them out but then later Joe said he had discovered other populations on up the creek. According to Chris they are still at the type locality.

Mudbug, I just discovered this discussion reference Florida Cambarus miltus. I first collected it in the Perdido drainage following Taylor and Schuster's collection in the Perdido in Alabama. I have also collected it, among other sites, along the Choctawhatchee and throughout the Holmes Creek basin, including Hightower Spring and south, west, and north of Chipley. At many of the more northerly sites, I often find miltus with diogenes and/or striatus. Color in Florida miltus is variable. Although most are the rust color reported by Fitzpatrick, some (especially juveniles) display a fair amount of blue and do seem to approach ludovucianus in color.

Did you get your versutus? You said that they had been documented at Hightower Spring by Hobbs, but if by Hobbs you meant his 1942 Bible, his map was not that precise. The main stem of Holmes Creek is definitely spiculifer habitat. You should look for versutus in the smaller tributaries, often in very small headwater rivulets.